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Remember the Post-Abortive Men? Back in 2008 they were featured on the front page of the LA Times, and for those who may have missed it, PAM is both a non-stick cooking spray and a recovery movement for sperm distributors who claim to have been robbed of their inadvertent patriarchy by Planned Parenthood. It involves a lot of activism and role play, such as naming their imaginary children, scheduling playdates in Ramada Inn ballrooms with other ghost dads, and issuing press releases in which the PAMs threaten to sob until abortion is sent back to the alleys and basements where it belongs.

When men are widely recognized as victims [of abortion], Rue said, “that will change society.”

But the activists leading the men’s movement make clear they’re not relying on statistics to make their case. They’re counting on the power of men’s tears.

As you may recall, the Times‘ cover boy was Jason Baier, who now runs the Fatherhood Forever Foundation, and is also a Man from M.A.N. (Men and Abortion Network), which is a super-secret anti-abortion organization that is accessed through Del Floria’s Tailor Shop.

uncle1.jpg

Well the agents of S.P.O.O.G.E. returned just in time for Father’s Day, or as I like to call it, A Bad Day To Go To Claim Jumper. This time, the man who had his fatherhood filched was Jerry DeBin, who “served 17 years for the State of Alabama in senior leadership roles and liaised with the Governor.” Presumably, “liaising with the Governor” is like “hiking the Appalachian Trail,” except you don’t use protection, and then the Governor has an abortion behind your back and you wind up with an empty photo-cube on your desk at the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries. But Jerry’s co-author comes with a much more detailed and distinguished pedigree:

“Author’s note: This piece is co-authored by Jeanne Monahan.”

Jeanne Monahan is the Director of the Center for Human Dignity at the Family Research Council. She researches, writes and speaks on the culture of life, with a focus on the sanctity of human personhood from conception until natural death. Prior to FRC, Jeanne worked for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in the Office of the Secretary. Her federal government experience includes global health policy, as well as domestic and international health care issues.

I’m going out on a limb and guessing this means “working to defund family planning organizations in the the Third World who acknowledge the existence of abortion.”

Before working in public policy, Jeanne worked for the Catholic Church

Quelle surprise.

…in a variety of positions involving educating on life issues, human sexuality, marriage and family. Jeanne has an undergraduate degree in psychology from James Madison University and a Masters degree in the theology of marriage and family from the Pope John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family.

The Pope John Paul II Institute also has a very highly regarded Marine Life Studies program, in which they teach fish how to swim and breath water.

A Woman’s “Choice” That Affects Men: Post-Abortion Trauma

This Father’s Day will be a celebration for dads all over the country, an opportunity for children to thank and honor their fathers. Yet for many men, the memory of involvement in a past abortion, of “cards they will not receive,” will be painful and palpable.

“I didn’t want to marry your mother, or help her raise a child, but I did want to force her to carry one to term in order to increase my annual greeting card yield.”

Granted, Hallmark hasn’t gone out of their way to meet the demand for holiday mementos from spectral zygotes (I’m thinking something simple, but sincere, like “World’s Greatest Condom Forgetter”) but Fantom Fathers Forever has stepped up and offered their own line of e-greeting cards (which will be available on their site as soon as they can figure out the complicated HTML).

AbortionGreetings.jpg

Seasonal Abortion Greetings from the “That Bitch!” Collection.

In a debate where the primary focus is a woman’s body and a woman’s right to choose whether or not to carry a child to his or her delivery, the “other partner,” the father of the baby, is rarely given consideration, and is often completely disregarded altogether. The question of abortion is myopically women-centric.

Exactly. And this is a shocking and unforgivable miscarriage of justice, especially when one considers that since 1973, there has not been a single verified case of a man choosing to terminate his pregnancy — even to save his own life — so really, who has the moral high ground here? Maybe it’s about time America put on its bifocals and looked at the question of abortion in a slightly more dick-centric way.

Abortion advocates often mock pro-life men. Men are told they shouldn’t speak out because they can never become pregnant. Yet, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to acknowledge that two women cannot a baby make.

Therefore, in the case of such a tie, only one of the women will be allowed to have the abortion and advance to the evening gown competition. (As a side note, even though a man and a woman joined together to create this article, it seem they cannot an argument make.)

Less acknowledged is the fact that this decision deeply impacts the dad, too.

Suppose a man deposited money in the bank, expecting that it would accumulate interest and grow, and instead that bank just decided to purge his account? Would any customer stand for that? Of course not, and we need to start holding women to the implied contract they sign when they accept a deposit from a man’s testicles, or else report them to the Sperm and Exchange Commission.

This year three Father’s Day cards will stand prominently on Jerry’s kitchen countertop, telling the wonderful story of the lives of his three grown children. But there is an empty space next to the cards which tells another story that continues to grieve Jerry and his wife, Dayna. Over thirty years ago, Jerry and his then high school sweetheart, Dayna, chose to abort two of their children.

Too bad they don’t have access to a time machine. Of course, going back and deciding to have those two children (twins? Two separate pregnancies?) in high school would radically change their lives, causing chrono-ripples and time-space paradoxes, so when they returned to the present they might find they were divorced, never married, and/or their three, grown children were never born, so they’re still short a few cards on the mantle. Of course, this would necessitate another trip back, with Jerry making sure to spread his seed on the nights his present children were conceived — but then Past Jerry would walk in, see Future Jerry copulating with his wife, and shoot him in a jealous rage, or maybe grab him by the throat, starting a chain-reaction like Ron Silver in Time Cop and turning them both into explosive goo.

And no child is going to send a card to goo. So again — bare mantle!

Jerry deeply empathizes with any man who has taken the life of another human and lives daily with that burden and emotional trauma. The negative psychological impact of abortion on women has been well publicized, but less so have been the effects of abortion on men.

There are two primary vectors for PTSD: doing a tour of duty in Falluja, or driving your girlfriend to the Free Clinic.

In researching the topic, we found a variety of books, websites and support groups dedicated to male post-abortion trauma, as well as a number of studies on the issue. One study reported that 82 percent of male parents of a recently aborted baby (ranging from two days to 37 months) experienced depression.

Of course, late term abortions can be medically necessary, but terminating a 37-month old pregnancy just seems a bit callous.

Another study found that men experienced anxiety, helplessness, guilt, and a dual sense of responsibility and regret during an abortion.

Which is often why you’ll see men weeping and pounding on the walls of the waiting room, although sometimes they’re just trying to dislodge a package of Nutter Butters stuck in the vending machine.

According to Guy Condon and David Hazard, authors of Fatherhood Aborted: The Profound Effects of Abortion on Men, post-abortive men suffer from a whole host of problems, including relationship struggles, inability to trust friends, rage, addictions and sexual compulsions, sleeplessness, bad dreams, nightmares, sexual dysfunction, depression, fear of failure, fear of rejection, and loneliness.

I’ve experienced a lot of those conditions myself, but I never knew they were signs of being a Post-Abortive Man — I thought they were just symptoms of living in America during the previous Administration. Now I realize — and am only just beginning to wrap my head around the implications — that Dick Cheney aborted our child.

Having found hope in their grief and regret, [Jerry and Dayna] deeply wanted others to avoid making these same mistakes. They felt the best way they could do so would be to support young people facing similar tough decisions, and decided to start a pregnancy resource center in Prattville, Ala.

Quelle friggin’ surprise.

Jerry and Dayna helped to start Grace Place to share truth about abortion

It’s tearing the heart out of America, and American Greetings®.

An estimated 50 million abortions have been performed in the U.S. since the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade. For each of those 50 million babies, there is a father.

Some men take the responsibilities of raising a phantom blastocyte seriously, and work hard to emulate their own fathers. But a word of warning: while you may consider it “just a friendly game of catch with my boy,” to the passerby it more closely resembles, “heaving a baseball at a woman’s abdomen.”

Even adjusting those numbers to allow for men who father more than one aborted child, the count of post-abortion men in America is easily 30 million. This Father’s Day let us honestly engage men in the conversation about abortion and its impacts on everyone involved. There remain significant, long-term consequences of Father’s Day cards that will not come this week … all across America.

We must ask ourselves if a woman’s right to control her own body is worth the grief and loneliness suffered by the millions of men who do not receive enough mail.

UPDATE: Amanda has provided some additional greeting card options for the holiday shopper.

73 Responses to “Abortion Seeking Women: Won’t Someone Think of the Man-Child?”

Because of course Father’s Day is All About You.

You know what? I had an abortion. I don’t spend Mother’s Day thinking about how I might have been a mother, I spend it thinking about my actual mother. I send her flowers and we talk and stuff. How much of Father’s Day do you suppose these guys spent thinking about their own fathers, or spending actual time with them if they’re still alive?

What the hell is wrong with the American psyche, that we can’t stand the thought that maybe everything isn’t All About Me? Do you people sulk if Veteran’s Day rolls around and people pay attention to it even though you, personally, are not a veteran? Do you spend Secretary’s Day whining that no one pays attention to columnists because they don’t happen to be secretaries? What the holy hell do you do during National Jellybean Month if you’re diabetic? Do you annually spend Black History Month grumping that there’s no White History Month?

Father’s Day: If you’re not a father, and you don’t have a father, maybe it’s just not about you.

What, no comment on Fatherhood Aborted being written by two guys collectively named Condon-Hazard? So close.

But there is an empty space next to the cards which tells another story that continues to grieve Jerry and his wife, Dayna. Over thirty years ago, Jerry and his then high school sweetheart, Dayna, chose to abort two of their children.

Boy, there’s a love story for the goddam ages, huh? Let’s just make a little side bet here that the decision to terminate the pregnancy wasn’t the mutual decision of two high school lovebirds, and that the empty place on the kitchen counter thirty years on is as ugly a little power play as could be imagined. “I love you, Snookums, and even though you murdered two of my children I hold myself almost as responsible for that blank space on my countertop shrine”. Any takers?

Doghouse,
No takers here. I have a friend who gets mad that his ex aborted some other guy’s deposit, long before friend and ex were married.

Scott,
…we need to start holding women to the implied contract they sign when they accept a deposit from a man’s testicles, or else report them to the Sperm and Exchange Commission.

Why I love coming here, also I never have to get out of the boat.

RT D Sidhe
If you have ever spent much time below the Mason Dixon line you would, indeed, see lots of people whining that there is no White History Month.

Ay yi yi, these people give me a pain. When they had to choose either teenage parenthood or abortion, they chose abortion. 30 years later, they’ve forgotten how that choice felt, and why they made it. They can grieve and regret all they want now, but when the shit hit the fan, Roe v Wade was their friend. That’s life. We make the best decisions that we can under the circumstances, and sometimes we’re sorry later. Now they want to take choice away from others, who may have equally or more compelling reasons for abortion.

And real studies of post-abortion women, studies done by actual researchers who don’t work for the John Paul Institute of Misogyny, generally find that women are happy with their decisions, and usually just relieved to get control of their lives back.

Did I just say “control”? Could it be that the ghost dads are actually regretting that this is one decision they don’t get to make?

hm, your post reached Marcotte levels of venality and stupidity. You must have been at this for some time.

hm, your post reached Marcotte levels of venality and stupidity. You must have been at this for some time.

It’s OK, a venal sin can be taken care of with two Hail Mary’s, an Our Father, and a donation to the Priestly Victims of Child Rape Persecution Fund. The stupidity can be absolved by a generous contribution to the No Snowflake Babies Left Behind Society. All donations are tax-deductible, unless President Barry Soetero decedies to use Chicago-style shakedown tactics and uses them to pauy down the deficit.

hm, your post reached Marcotte levels of venality and stupidity. You must have been at this for some time.

It’s OK, a venal sin can be taken care of with two Hail Mary’s, an Our Father, and a donation to the Priestly Victims of Child Rape Persecution Fund. The stupidity can be absolved by a generous contribution to the No Snowflake Babies Left Behind Society. All donations are tax-deductible, unless President Barry Soetero decedies to use Chicago-style shakedown tactics and uses them to pauy down the deficit.

Oh, I love this. These are the people who, when anyone suggests that carrying a given pregnancy to term might not be a good idea, shriek that YOU SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT BEFORE YOU HAD SEX! NOW SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES, BITCH! But just let the notional FATHER get all lachrymose, and it’s all whine whine whine why should HE possibly have to suffer any sort of consequences for his actions?

So I say: don’t want to be haunted by phantom zygotes? Don’t have sex. Otherwise, ess tee eff you.

“Open Channel D&C” should be winning some important award, somewhere.

I may have to start my own awards show.

“hm, your post reached Marcotte levels of venality and stupidity. You must have been at this for some time.”

God, wingnuts/men’s rights activists, etc., are SO threatened by her, and I find it hilarious.

You, Scott, are of course a traitor in their eyes, because you’re a straight dude, and you’re writing about these things, and also, you’re not afraid of the Marcotte, because really, she’s kind of cool, and mostly right about things.

D. Sidhe, of course they think it’s All About Them. Have we learned nothing from the debate on Gay Marriage, which whiny straight people keep trying, and failing, to make All About Them?

I expect Poor Widdle CantStayZipped would come back to the future and find a picture of the kid he managed to find without alerting the authorities to his whereabouts in re 30 years of missed child support payments.

Boy, there’s a love story for the goddam ages, huh?

That made me spit Tab on my keyboard. Doghouse, I adore your curmudgeonly ways, and envy your rhetorical style.

Katie, I was just having some fun, heh heh. As Bill suggests, it’s *always* all about them.

Center for Human Dignity at the Family Research Council
Isn’t that like the Center for Racial Harmony at the KKK?

Well the agents of S.P.O.O.G.E. returned just in time for Father’s Day, or as I like to call it, A Bad Day To Go To Claim Jumper.

Please, let me beat Actor212 here and say, “I hate you.”

Now I realize — and am only just beginning to wrap my head around the implications — that Dick Cheney aborted our child.

No, really.

Some suggestions for the next PAM sympathy card:

Keep it zipped next time.

Put a raincoat on it.

No means no!

Oh, and it’s funny how they didn’t mention the overwhelming sense of relief that most sperm donors feel when things that come to fruit unexpectedly are, um, taken care of.

I love you people.

post-abortive men suffer from a whole host of problems, including relationship struggles, inability to trust friends, rage, addictions and sexual compulsions, sleeplessness, bad dreams, nightmares, sexual dysfunction, depression, fear of failure, fear of rejection, and loneliness.

Which is why she should never have slept with him in the first place.

Not one, but two trips to the Free Clinic?

I’ve been trying to imagine who would want to get a card like this, and who would want to give it to someone. The idea of greeting card selections directly addressing abortion is creepy. Imagine being in some department store, and seeing the card-rack divisions:
“Birthday”, “Anniversary”, “(Holiday of the Month)”, “New Baby”, “Get Well”…
And then coming to-well, what would the sign say? I mean, “Cards For Men Whose Wife/Girlfriend Terminated a Pregnancy” would be too long. And whatever they called it, would you want to be seen BUYING such a card?
And how would you really feel if you got such a card? We’re talking about a rather private matter and a sensitive subject. And your friends, to show how much they care about you, decided to let a bunch of strangers at K-Mart know ALL about it.

When men are widely recognized as victims [of abortion], Rue said, “that will change society.”

Y’know, I’m almost…almost…sympathetic to the thought that a baby being aborted is a “victim” of, well, something, but not enough to become anti-abortion.

But men?

Use a condom, shithead.

They’re counting on the power of men’s tears.

Which have actually been known to be powerful enough to run a wristwatch, one of the kind that you shake to charge up. And even then, the guy’s holding the watch in his hand while jogging in place.

Man from M.A.N. (Men and Abortion Network), which is a super-secret anti-abortion organization that is accessed through Del Floria’s Tailor Shop.

I really hate you.

You know, Scott, that tailor shop was actually in my neighborhood. True story. The exterior long shot was filmed on 47th street on the Upper East Side.

“served 17 years for the State of Alabama in senior leadership roles and liaised with the Governor.”

So he wrote an email and got a form letter back that was autosigned, which he framed and hung over his desk?

Yet for many men, the memory of involvement in a past abortion, of “cards they will not receive,” will be painful and palpable.

I do not know one man who regrets his woman’s decision to have an abortion. Hell, most of them drove her over and paid.

I’m thinking something simple, but sincere, like “World’s Greatest Condom Forgetter”

Seasonal Abortion Greetings from the “That Bitch!” Collection.

And this is a shocking and unforgivable miscarriage of justice, especially when one considers that since 1973, there has not been a single verified case of a man choosing to terminate his pregnancy — even to save his own life — so really, who has the moral high ground here?

I reeeeeeeeeeeeally hate you. Now you’re just hogging the jokes! This is like you’re Portugal and I’m North Korea and there’s a soccer ball.

Yet, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to acknowledge that two women cannot a baby make.

Um, actually, it can happen. But if you knew the science, you’d know how stupid this statement is.

This year three Father’s Day cards will stand prominently on Jerry’s kitchen countertop, telling the wonderful story of the lives of his three grown children.

Oh, I bet he only gets two, and one of those will be from the grandkids. All of them.

Jerry deeply empathizes with any man who has taken the life of another human and lives daily with that burden and emotional trauma.

Ol’ Jerry here is a pussy.

One study reported that 82 percent of male parents of a recently aborted baby (ranging from two days to 37 months) experienced depression.

Well, after partying because they ducked 18 years of child support, that hangover can be a bitch in its own right.

Some men take the responsibilities of raising a phantom blastocyte seriously, and work hard to emulate their own fathers. But a word of warning: while you may consider it “just a friendly game of catch with my boy,” to the passerby it more closely resembles, “heaving a baseball at a woman’s abdomen.”

ratserfratserratser….

Even adjusting those numbers to allow for men who father more than one aborted child, the count of post-abortion men in America is easily 30 million.

So she’s saying 40% of American men are serial stupid? Not learning the condom (Condon?) lesson the first time, they fuck it up again???

Nice work, Scott! You should write a funny book or something.

Who knew that there was such a shortage of both spine and testicle running rampant these days? Think of the “real” victim, huh? Transparently sick fucks.

“Before working in public policy, Jeanne worked for the Catholic Church” … ‘in a variety of positions’ involving educating on life issues, human sexuality, marriage and family.” Were those positions missionary, oral and anal ?

I had to publish my story at the Fatherhood Forever website, and I’d thought I’d share it with you, too . . . I got pregnant at 17 . . . my boyfriend wanted me to keep it and drop out of school . . . he beat me to keep me from getting an abortion . . . I sneaked out of the house and got away safely . . . I graduated college and had a successful career . . . now I have three lovely wanted children and a wonderful husband . . . thank heavens I escaped that creep . . .

“now I have three lovely wanted children and a wonderful husband . . . thank heavens I escaped that creep . . . ”

But you missed out on a lifetime of happiness living in a trailer.

Dreams deferred… -sigh-

But you missed out on a lifetime of happiness living in a trailer.

Think of the money she could have saved on shoes.

As a card-carrying hopeless socialist lefty I have to say I’m honestly really embarrassed by pretty much everything here. Like, I’m pro-choice and yes yes yes conservatives are big evil dummies, but is it too much to ask for a little compassion and nuance? Aren’t our big brains good for that?

It’s been years since my (then girlfriend, now) wife had her abortion and I STILL get torn up about it from time to time, wondering if we made the right choice, what he/she would look like, wishing all the circumstances that made pregnancy untenable had been better, etc. I never had a second thought about whether we had the RIGHT to do it, but it certainly wasn’t an easy choice and there was a lot of pain and mourning that went along with it. So, as much as I totally disagree with these guys’ ultimate political point, I still have to respect the common humanity there and how this situation can rip you to shreds if you’re not a total heartless slob.

Fortunately my wife and I agreed, but if we hadn’t and I had wanted to keep it and she aborted it, yeah – I would have been pretty livid, and I think that reaction would have been totally valid. The shit’s complicated. And it makes me really sad to see so many idiots on here getting their dumb-ass snark on without having the intelligence to think for a second that the issue might be more complex than “Hee Haw Dumb Man With Penis Said Jesus (high five).”

And now I guess it’s time for you to call me a troll and sidestep anything substantive I’ve brought up here because hooray internet.

Three words for these “It’s all about me” guys: Jimmy hat, shitheads.

Fortunately my wife and I agreed, but if we hadn’t and I had wanted to keep it and she aborted it, yeah – I would have been pretty livid, and I think that reaction would have been totally valid.

You know what, that would not have been a valid response. Not at all. Sure, you’re entitled to your emotions and all that, but that would be one hell of an asshole reaction, as far as I’m concerned. When you have a uterus and can carry a pregnancy to term and also face most of the consequences of having a child, then being “livid” would be a valid response.

Because, and be honest here, which parent is the one who has to deal with the vast majority of negative shit that comes of having kids (you know, the reduced pay and career/education prospects, the disrespect from random strangers, and all of that crap–and I say this as the mother of two very much wanted, loved, and planned for sons)? It surely isn’t the man involved. And until the man involved can get pregnant, make a whole other person in his body, give birth to that person, and then deal with the rest that comes with mothering a child, said man involved has absolutely no business being anything but supportive of whatever decision the woman involved makes. And if that means he has to suck it up and deal with his precious fee fees which have no bearing on anything at all, well, then, sucks to be him, but that’s just the way it goes.

Thank you for your concern, Chris.

Also, excuse me if I don’t shed a tear for you so long as men’s pweshus feewings are being used to deprive women of their rights.

If you actually *are* “a card-carrying hopeless socialist lefty,” you’re a great example of how many men on the left really don’t get feminist issues and don’t want to.

This year three Father’s Day cards will stand prominently on Jerry’s kitchen countertop, telling the wonderful story of the lives of his three grown children. But there is an empty space next to the cards which tells another story that continues to grieve Jerry and his wife, Dayna. Over thirty years ago, Jerry and his then high school sweetheart, Dayna, chose to abort two of their children.

Did they not pay attention to Back to the Future? If you go back in time and mess around with parents, the current kids start to disappear off the mantle!

“Fortunately my wife and I agreed, but if we hadn’t and I had wanted to keep it and she aborted it, yeah – I would have been pretty livid, and I think that reaction would have been totally valid.”

Really? You think it’s valid to be mad that someone doesn’t want to do something with her body you want her to do, just so you can have something you want?

And now I guess it’s time for you to call me a troll and sidestep anything substantive I’ve brought up here because hooray internet.

Not unless you’re demanding a Father’s Day card from your unborn, no.

Chris, you think you’re the only man who’s had to live thru an abortion?

I have too. Hell, I’ve lived thru three miscarriages. Don’t presume to lecture me about how hard it was, because I know. The woman who aborted my baby was the woman I dreamed to be with and still do from time to time. There isn’t a year goes by that I don’t drive past the place we talked about owning a home and wonder what it would have been like.

Yes, I mourn that baby. I mourn that relationship, too.

BUT AT LEAST YOU GOT THE FUCKING WIFE OUT OF THE DEAL!

So don’t. Just don’t.

“So, as much as I totally disagree with these guys’ ultimate political point, I still have to respect the common humanity there and how this situation can rip you to shreds if you’re not a total heartless slob.”
Uh, Chris, not everyone has to be a total heartless slob not to get ripped to shreds over an abortion. Some us are quite relieved by them actually without being heartless. But in your world, WE are the ones who are judging you and dictating your emotions. *sigh*

Despite the emotional trauma some men may experience when the woman they’ve impregnated decides to abort, it is still my opinion that the final say belongs to the woman for a number of reasons:
1. She’s the one who will have to carry the baby to term, not the man. He won’t be spending mornings with his head in the toilet; he won’t be uncomfortable most hours of the day.
2. At some point, the woman’s career is probably going to have to take a back seat to the man’s. She’ll likely be taking extended time off from work when the baby is born and perhaps will even have to put her career on hold indefinitely.
3. Should the father decide to just walk away, the mother is going to be left with the very expensive and difficult job of raising a child on her own. Yeah, I know there are laws in place and men have to pay child support, but the only ones who are going to pay it are those with the means to pay it. Too many fathers who choose to be irresponsible will end up paying only a fraction of the child support to which the mother was entitled. The laws in this area are entirely insufficient, and when you consider that the majority of the folks making these laws are men, one can hardly be surprised.

And yes, I understand that they’re are some exceptions to what I’ve listed, but those are anomalies, not the norm, so I’ll tell you in advance that kind of rebuttal won’t sway me.

In the end, the woman bears the greater risk and responsibility, and therefore is entitled to have the last word on childbirth.

@Chris:
I think the most important distinction in terms of whether you should be ignored or not is at whom you would be ‘livid.’ If you would be livid at the woman involved, you need to go back to Equality 101. If you would be livid at the universe, then your feelings are your feelings. What constitutes loss is different for everyone. That’s why the flying spaghetti monster made therapy, because zie wants us to heal.

Oh, good. Concern troll is concerned.

Hey, Chris? We went over this in the thread Scott linked at the very top of this bit.

Allow me to briefly hit the highlights:

Men sometimes feel bad about having their potential child aborted. We understand that, and that’s perfectly valid, in the same way that it’s valid to wonder what would have happened if you’d gone to college/joined the foreign legion/become a pirate/etc. Humans regret having to make decisions, and tend to imagine the decision they didn’t make would have been rosy. That whole “the grass is greener” thing.

The funny thing is, sometimes women regret having had an abortion, as well. Not always, but sometimes. There are lots of reasons for this, but let’s just say that any time lots of people make any decision, some of them will later regret it. That’s also entirely valid, and we understand that.

The problem is in how people handle those regrets. If you want to spend the rest of your life moping around on Father’s Day and Mother’s Day, you can, though I personally think you’re wasting a perfectly good couple of Sundays, and, in the case of the lovely couple cited in Scott’s link, giving rather short shrift to your actual offspring as you devote your lives to your potentialities, not to mention the apparent guilt-and-resentment between the lines that Mr Riley alludes to. Still, it’s your life, and if you want to do it that way, it’s certainly your right.

Meanwhile, women have abortions for all sorts of reasons, which is their right. Sometimes those reasons are not shared or even respected by the men involved, and perhaps you’ll forgive me if I assume that’s more likely when the men then go on to sign up with a group that’s determined to prevent any woman from ever having an abortion for any reason.

So:

1. Feelings are fine. We’re good with feelings.

2. Using your feelings to control other people, who have different feelings, not so much.

3. Seriously, “post-abortive men”. It’s a woman thing, I suppose, but I’ve become very familiar with the ways men use their privilege to usurp women’s experiences. One of those ways is to use language to suggest that things women experience are just “human” things, so women should shut up at the very least, and hopefully actually listen to men explain what it *really* means. And yes, that bothers the holy fuck out of me. So when guys like you come in and explain that men who are not “total heartless slobs” are “ripped to shreds” by abortion, despite the fact that lots of *women* who are not “total heartless slobs” are demonstrably *not* “ripped to shreds” by abortions, it’s not that difficult to spot the male privilege usurping the female experience. And, yeah, some of us get grumpy about it.

So, now I’ve called you a troll, but I have also addressed your substantive points. Life’s like that a lot, how you wind up with mixed feelings about things other people do that affect you, and you decide which ones to concentrate on.

Lisa, similar situation here, once upon a very long time ago. It’s not easy to get out, and it doesn’t get any easier pregnant.

I’m glad you’re okay, too. I hope it’s a nice day where you are too.

Do yourselves a favor ladies and just don’t tell the men in your lives. Much easier. When they are forced to carry a pregnancy to term, they will have a voice but until then, can STFU!

“When they are forced to carry a pregnancy to term, they will have a voice but until then, can STFU!”

Ahh …I wish I had a talent for that kind of brevity. That one sentence summed up my previous mini-essay pretty well.

I tend to boil it down to “one cock, no vote.”
But that may be OVERsimplifying it. just a smidge.

but terminating a 37-month old pregnancy just seems a bit callous.

ah, but that’s when they learn what “no” means

“Fortunately my wife and I agreed, but if we hadn’t and I had wanted to keep it and she aborted it, yeah – I would have been pretty livid, and I think that reaction would have been totally valid.”

I see. So you think you should have a say in what happens to your wife’s body?

Let’s flip this around, shall we? Let’s say, that your wife decided she was done having kids. She’s still of child bearing age, but she doesn’t want to use The Pill (they trigger migraines for her), she doesn’t want her tubes tied (it’s expensive and an invasive surgery).

IUDs are out for her, because they can cause heavier periods, and leads to an increase of infecton. She doesn’t want you to use a condom, because that affects the “feel” of the intimate act of lovemaking.

She wants you to get a vasectomy. You don’t want one and tell her that. If she became “livid” about your choice, would you think her reaction a valid one?

I look forward to your response.

Came here via pandagon.

When I had an abortion, I was pretty upset about it. I’ve been pro-choice for a while, but I was raised Catholic, so when I actually had to make the decision myself, I felt pretty horrible about it. So it was a bit of an ordeal for me, and a bit of an ordeal for my boyfriend, who was being very supportive. When he was waiting for me in the clinic lobby, he thought about having kids someday. Specifically, that since we had gotten through the emergency of needing an abortion together so well, he thought that we’d be able to get through future emergencies together too, and was imagining future occassions sitting in waiting rooms. He came out of the experience feeling proud of us and with a bright outlook towards our future.

I always wonder what these PAM types would say to him.

Of course, late term abortions can be medically necessary, but terminating a 37-month old pregnancy just seems a bit callous.

Personally, I think that if she’s still pregnant after 37 months then abortion seems much, much more reasonable.

A pet peeve of mine is saying “abort the baby/fetus” instead of “abort the pregnancy”. Abort means stop. You don’t stop the fetus, you stop the pregnancy, though obviously this is fatal to the fetus. Why does this matter? Because saying “abort the pregnancy” recognizes the pregnancy is a process. The woman’s body goes through hard work those nine months. Of course, it’s perfectly in their right to stop that process.

Oh my god, these guys desperately need to let it go already. Thirty years, three living children, and he’s *still* hanging on to What Might Have Been. Damn dude, get with the present. Until the day that guys can get pregnant, no, they don’t get a say.

My own position has been, and remains, that I’ll be obligated to show concern for the politically-motivated professional mawkishness some time after those people have demonstrated genuine concern for the well-being of every unwanted infant born on the planet.

Don’t expect to get called on that anytime soon, say, this lifetime.

In the meantime, the fact that you, or any other average human has enough brain capacity to imagine some set of circumstances other than what he experienced, the language to communicate those imaginings, and the self-assurance to insist to others that he “knows” what is or isn’t possible I chalk up to an accident of human evolution and our apparent temporal proximity; it doesn’t compel me any more than your writing science fiction, or a cookbook, obligates me to sample it.

I’m with Pagan on this; just don’t tell ‘em. Then there’ll be no PAMs to deal with.

If we don’t have any say, then we don’t have to pay. Works for me.

If we don’t have any say, then we don’t have to pay. Works for me.

You’ve been paying support for aborted fetuses? Somebody’s sure got your number!

If we don’t have any say, then we don’t have to pay. Works for me.

Dude, you don’t get to make someone else’s medical decisions which is the realm pregnancy and abortion fall under.

You don’t get to control someone else’s bodily autonomy.

And you don’t pay child support for a fucking zygote/embryo/fetus.

You pay child support for a child.

You want to argue about child support payments? Do it when there’s actually a child in the picture.

Personal finances and bodily autonomy are not equivalent.

If we don’t have any say, then we don’t have to pay. Works for me.

If you are paying for sex, do you REALLY want to have a chance to raise the little tyke when last winter\’s crack whore turns up pregnant?

If we don’t have any say, then we don’t have to pay. Works for me.

…”til death do us part” – know what I mean?

“If we don’t have any say, then we don’t have to pay. Works for me.”

Didn’t think that one through too clearly, did ya? Dumbass.

If we don’t have any say, then we don’t have to pay. Works for me.

I don’t think anyone was denying that men have a RIGHT to be irresponsible, flaming assholes. But hey–revel in your dickishness! It’s the republican way!

[...] Scott at World O’ Crap has a hilarious post up about anti-choicers pretending that they just discovered that they oppose abortion because it violates men’s rights over their uterine property (established by the “poke it/own it” law laid down in beer commercials).  In it, he discovers that there’s been an attempt to make sympathy cards for men who’ve been violated by women just up and aborting without permission. [...]

Geo X:

“I don’t think anyone was denying that men have a RIGHT to be irresponsible, flaming assholes…..”

If I don’t have any rights I should not have any responsibilities….if that makes me an asshole, so be it….

By the way, I’m NOT a Republican….

Morgan:

“Personal finances and bodily autonomy are not equivalent.”

Maybe not, but bodily autonomy and sole responsibility should be…..otherwise it is hypocritical bullshit, law or no law…..

If I don’t have any rights I should not have any responsibilities

Isn’t that what I said? You have every right to leave your female partner in the lurch. It makes you a total fucking asshole, but hey, freedom isn’t free, right?

Dear Chris:

“It’s been years since my (then girlfriend, now) wife had her abortion and I STILL get torn up about it from time to time, wondering if we made the right choice, what he/she would look like, wishing all the circumstances that made pregnancy untenable had been better, etc.”

Your wife probably gets torn up about it as well, although she probably doesn’t talk about it much. You both made the best decision for the both of you given your circumstances at the time and that is all that anyone can ask of anyone else.
And that is what is missing on the other side of the debate. The so-called “pro-life” side never takes into account the circumstances of the people involved with the decision at the time of the decision. Even Jerry and Dayna made the best decision for themselves at the time. They made a choice — a difficult one to be sure, but it was their choice. And now they wish to take that choice away from others.

We all make decisions based on the facts at the time, who we are at any particular time and a myriad of other reasons. To go back and say that you would make a different choice knowing what you know now, well, we all have done that with a variety of decisions and is disingenuous to the argument. We cannot change decisions that we have made. We can regret them and wonder about the road not taken, but to wallow in a decision that took place years ago, seems a little counter productive.

In this case, I suspect, this group has an agenda to end abortion. That is fair, and they are within their rights to do so, but it seems a little shallow to argue for the end of abortion because the potential father might (or might not) feel badly at some point in the future. Their reasoning seems a bit thin.

Love this. Just love it. Thanks…

We can regret them and wonder about the road not taken,

and if I could look into the future I would have retired a looong time ago

If you have ever spent much time below the Mason Dixon line

I’ve done quite a bit of that, but I have an oral fixation.

[...] That was over 25 years ago but I couldn’t help but think of his obvious pain when I read the latest Amanda Marcotte vandalism in support of female supremacy and radical abortionism. Scott at World O’ Crap has a hilarious post up about anti-choicers pretending that they just discovered that they oppose abortion because it violates men’s rights over their uterine property (established by the “poke it/own it” law laid down in beer commercials). In it, he discovers that there’s been an attempt to make sympathy cards for men who’ve been violated by women just up and aborting without permission. [...]

Glad to see that my article sparked discussion. The story is about the reality of consequences – in my case – for ending two innocent lives and harming Dayna in the process. It’s also about finding God’s forgiveness that enabled us to move beyond it.

Kudos to those of you who took the high road in expressing opinions about the story. And to those who tried painting imaginative stereotypes of me…you missed it.

Ks wrote
said man involved has absolutely no business being anything but supportive of whatever decision the woman involved makes.

A man doesn’t have to be supportive of shit. I was about to say that he just needs to accept it, but that’s not entirely true either. He has to deal with it. If he wants to put a blank picture on his desk or a picture of a question mark, that’s his right, If that offends some women, tough.
It’s her body so she should have to deal with it all up to birth. If men aren’t able to financially abort, then women shouldn’t either. A woman can without the consent or knowledge of the father pit a baby up for adoption thereby terminating his parental rights as well as hers. I think that should be OK, but if the father doesn’t have a say in the termination of his parental rights then she should have to pay child support to the adoptive parents. We’ll see how many women don’t know the identities of the fathers then.

D. Sidhe wrote

You know what? I had an abortion. I don’t spend Mother’s Day thinking about how I might have been a mother, I spend it thinking about my actual mother. I send her flowers and we talk and stuff. How much of Father’s Day do you suppose these guys spent thinking about their own fathers, or spending actual time with them if they’re still alive?

Good for you, but remember it was your choice. Whether and how they celebrate father’s day is theirs. If they want to envision their lost children due to an unwelcomed abortion, that’s their choice too, but I guess choices are only meant for women, right?

Oldfeminist wrote
Really? You think it’s valid to be mad that someone doesn’t want to do something with her body you want her to do, just so you can have something you want?

Just like everything, that usually depends on what the “thing” is. If it’s life altering, possibly. I find it odd that a feminist would take offense to a person’s reaction to a decision someone else made, since that would not in fact alter the decision, but feminist sites are eerily quiet on male circumcision. I guess choices are only for women.

Jim said

3. Should the father decide to just walk away, the mother is going to be left with the very expensive and difficult job of raising a child on her own. Yeah, I know there are laws in place and men have to pay child support, but the only ones who are going to pay it are those with the means to pay it. Too many fathers who choose to be irresponsible will end up paying only a fraction of the child support to which the mother was entitled. The laws in this area are entirely insufficient, and when you consider that the majority of the folks making these laws are men, one can hardly be surprised.

And yes, I understand that they’re are some exceptions to what I’ve listed, but those are anomalies, not the norm, so I’ll tell you in advance that kind of rebuttal won’t sway me.

Dude, you forgot to mention that

1. Child custody laws still heavily favor the mother. How many financial burdens would be lifted from women if courts gave custody to willing fathers?

2. Child visitation laws are sorely inadequate in protecting the visitation rights of dads. Research has shown that involved fathers are more likely to pay child support.

Tradition and law have calculated age from birth not conception. That is where human life has traditionally started. A woman should be able to do with her body whatever she wants within reason. The state reserves the right to prevent you from doing harmful acts such as suicide. By no means am I anti-choice. I just want more fairness in the handling of children’s cases such as the requirement for women to pay child support to adoptive parents if they place a child for adoption without the consent of the father.

D. Sidhe said

Humans regret having to make decisions, and tend to imagine the decision they didn’t make would have been rosy. That whole “the grass is greener” thing.

Although I agree with most of this post, in many abortion cases it wasn’t his decision to regret.

Life’s like that a lot, how you wind up with mixed feelings about things other people do that affect you, and you decide which ones to concentrate on.

Kind of like when people try to end abortion.

Pagan said

Do yourselves a favor ladies and just don’t tell the men in your lives. Much easier.

I totally agree. If his input doesn’t matter, keep it to yourself. It’s not his problem.

Maryc said

She wants you to get a vasectomy. You don’t want one and tell her that. If she became “livid” about your choice, would you think her reaction a valid one?

I look forward to your response.

It doesn’t appear that he answered, but I’ll try. I hope you’re still checking. No, the reaction is not valid because it doesn’t feel the same is not a life altering event. A botched vasectomy would be. A vasectomy not reversed in time would also be. I personally would have no problem with a woman I didn’t have any legal obligations to having a botched abortion and dying or being unable to have children or painless sex. That’s her right, but even a successful abortion changes his life. It may be for the better, but it alters it.

Something to say?